Chapter 3 Discussion

Here are some responses to the questions I posed for chapter 3.



1. If we don't have the original manuscripts how can we know that the wording of the books of the Bible is authentic? It is important to remember that we don't have the originals for any other ancient manuscript either, except for those carved in stone, so the Bible is not unique here. Authenticity is verified by gathering the oldest copies you can and then if there are multiple copies you compare their wording. Unanimity between copies increases your trust in their wording.




2. How do some other famous pieces of ancient literature compare with the Bible when it comes to the number of copies and time gap from the original to the oldest copy we possess? Most other pieces of literature exist in only a handful of copies and usually not even in the original language. They are dated centuries after the original. We do however possess literally thousands of Biblical manuscripts with many dating less than 100 years after the original. They are also in the original Hebrew and Greek.




3. What is the earliest New Testament manuscript we have? The earliest fragment is called P51. The P stands for papyrus and they are numbered in the order they were discovered and studied. It has several verses from the Gospel of John on it and is dated between 117-138 AD. Since John probably wrote his Gospel around 90 AD we actually possess this fragment that is only 30-50 years after the original. No other ancient piece of literature can claim this.


4. How many total New Testament manuscripts do we have and are any of them in the original language? We have a total of over 24,000 manuscripts and over 5000 of them are in the original Greek.


5. What is a variant reading and how serious are they when examining the New Testament? A variant reading is when one manuscript copy does not match word for word with another. Most of these are spelling variations or word order changes. Since word order is not critical in Greek then most variants do not change the meaning of the verse. No major ideas or doctrines are affected by these variants.


6. The DaVinci Code claims that the Gospel of Thomas is more trust worthy than the Bible and that Jesus was a feminist, how would you respond to this? The Gospel of Thomas only exists in one or two documents that are dated about 200 AD so they are not as authentic as the traditional Gospels. Ironically, Jesus shows respect to women in the real Gospels but in the Gospel of Thomas he is supposed to have said that a woman has to become a man in order to be saved. You have to wonder if these people actually read the books they claim are more trustworthy than the Bible.


7. Do you think books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Judas and Barnabas should have been included in the Bible? They can be found in collections such as "The Lost Books of the Bible". These books are not nearly as authentic as the traditional New Testament books. All of these were written in the second, third and fourth centuries and we know they could not have been written by the person they are claimed to be authored by. One standard for Biblical books is "Apostolic Authority" which means they should be authored by a direct apostle or eyewitness of the events or a close associate. All of the New Testament books were written in the first century and fulfill this requirement. The Church was right to reject these books.


I will be covering chapters 4 and 5 this Sunday August 2nd. I hope you are enjoying the study.

Chapter 3 Questions

We finished the handout from last week this morning and that puts us through chapter 3. Here are some questions to think about and I will post some responses in a couple of days.


1. If we don't have the original manuscripts how can we know that the wording of the books of the Bible is authentic?


2. How do some other famous pieces of ancient literature compare with the Bible when it comes to the number of copies and time gap from the original to the oldest copy we possess?


3. What is the earliest New Testament manuscript we have?


4. How many total New Testament manuscripts do we have and are any of them in the original language?


5. What is a variant reading and how serious are they when examining the New Testament?


6. The DaVinci Code claims that the Gospel of Thomas is more trust worthy than the Bible and that Jesus was a feminist, how would you respond to this?


7. Do you think books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Judas and Barnabas should have been included in the Bible? They can be found in collections such as "The Lost Books of the Bible".


Begin reading chapters 4 and 5 for next week. Have a blessed week and let me know if you have any questions.

Chapter 2 Discussion

We will be discussing Chapter 2 in class on July 26 so what I am posting today you will be able to hear more of if you are getting the mp3 files. Chapter 2 covers eight legal tests that are used to determine the authenticity of a document being submitted as evidence. Let's see how the Bible holds up under the same scrutiny.

1. If a document was being submitted as evidence for a trial in a court of Law, what type of tests do you think would be run on it to make sure it was authentic? The eight tests covered here are Intention, Ability, Character, Consistency, Bias, Cover-up, Corroboration and Adverse Witness.

2. How authentic do you think the Bible manuscripts are? Chapters 1 and 3 show how the New Testament is the most authentic of any ancient manuscript when you study the number of copies and the time gap between the original and the oldest one we possess.

3. Do you thin the Biblical authors had the intent to tell the truth or exaggerate? There is nothing to point toward these men lying. Tradition shows they were upstanding men whose lives were changed by their encounter with Christ. We do not see the exaggeration in the Gospels that we see in apocryphal writings. Luke even states his intent to tell accurate history at the beginning of Luke and Acts.

4. Does a person have the ability to accurately record an event 30-50 years after it happened? If an elderly person wrote memoirs of their childhood you would not question their accuracy even though the events were more than 30-50 years earlier. Also, in the ancient Jewish world they relied heavily on oral tradition which means they used memorization skills more than we do today. Lastly, it is important to see that most of other ancient documents such as the biography of Alexander the Great were written centuries later so to question the authenticity of the New Testament would mean questioning practically all of history.

5. Do you thing the authors of the Gospel accounts were men of good character? There is no evidence to cause us to picture these men as other than outstanding individuals.

6. Many people say that parallel stories in the Gospels differ in details therefore the Bible is in error. If two peoples stories are 100% consistent in every minor detail would you trust them more? It is interesting that if two witnesses or suspects agree too much they are actually doubted as conspiring with each other. Everybody experiences life differently and if two people see the same event they will describe it differently. The fact that the four Gospel accounts tell the same basic story with slight differences in minor details actually shows the authors were not conspiring.

7. Do yo think the Biblical authors are biased so they cannot be totally trusted? There is some bias from the point that they wanted to convince people that Jesus was the Christ. However, archaeology shows that they were truthful in reporting historical events so they did not overstep their bounds as eyewitnesses.

8. Do yo think the Apostles covered up embarrassing moments to make Jesus and themselves look more impressive? It's actually amazing how truthful they were. It would have been easy to leave out some of Jesus' harder teachings and difficult to explain events. A good example is Mark reporting that Peter denied Christ even though we believe Mark was writing from Peter's perspective. He did not leave out the embarrassing material.

9. Are there any documents you know of that mention Jesus apart from the Bible? 39 references to Christ apart from the Bible have been found. The most famous are those by Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the younger.

10. How many documents do you know of that were written by Jesus' opponents and speak badly of him? There are references to Christ in the Jewish Talmud and Mishnah. They usually refer to him as a deceiver leading people astray by sorcery and committing blasphemy and being born illegitimately. Even though negative, these statements show that Jesus was known for an uncommon birth, claimed to be God and performed great feats.

The Bible passes these tests pretty well, much better that many other documents. What fascinates me is how people who reject the Bible refer to other documents that they trust such as the Gospel of Thomas or Gospel of Judas that make outrageous claims, offensive statements and that we only have one manuscript copy of.

Chapter 2 Discussion Questions

I taught session two this morning but ran out of time. We really only covered chapter one. I e-mailed out the mp3 link so let me know if you haven't received it and want a copy. Here are some questions to think about for chapter two. I will post some discussion on these probably on Tuesday. Have fun and Take care.


1. If a document was being submitted as evidence for a trial in a court of law, what type of tests do you think would be run on it to make sure it was authentic?


2. How authentic do you think the Bible manuscripts are?


3. Do you think the Biblical authors had the intent to tell the truth or exaggerate?


4. Does a person have the ability to accurately record an event 30-50 years after it happened?


5. Do you think the authors of the Gospel accounts were men of good character?


6. Many people say that parallel stories in the Gospels differ in details therefore the Bible is in error. If two people's stories are 100% consistent in every minor detail would you trust them more?


7. Do you think the Biblical authors are biased so they cannot be totally trusted?


8. Do you think the the Apostles covered up embarrassing moments to make Jesus and themselves look more impressive?


9. Are there any documents you know of that mention Jesus apart from the Bible?


10. How many documents do you know of that were written by Jesus' opponents and speak badly of him?


Read chapter two to get an idea how to respond to these questions. It's pretty neat to apply modern legal tests to the Bible to see how it stands up.

Chapter 1 Discussion

If you haven't tried the discussion questions on your own for chapter 1 you can scroll down to the previous post. Here are some answers or responses to the questions.

1. If you were on a jury, how important would eyewitness testimony be in helping you make your decision? Eyewitness testimony is crucial. If the prosecution has an eyewitness, the defense knows they only chance they have is to discredit the character and reputation of that witness or to show they are lieing or have a motive for being dishonest.

2. What eyewitnesses do we have for Jesus' life? Paul claimed there were over 500 eyewitnesses still alive when he was writing. The most important ones are the ones we have writings from. I would say that Matthew, John and Peter would rank as most important in the New Testament.

3. How do the author's names on the four Gospel accounts compare with that of apocryphal writings? Apocryphal writings are false writings meaning we know they were not written by the claimed author and usually are written long after that author actually lived. Apocryphal writings usually choose famous and very highly revered people as the author. These include people like Peter, Abraham, Mary, Daniel and Enoch. The Gospels include Matthew who was a tax collector and therefore scum of the earth. Luke was not an eyewitness and was also not Jewish. If there was a cover-up here these names would not have been used.

4. How do the four Gospel accounts differ from modern biographies? The Gospels focus most of there attention on the Passion week. They do not even cover Jesus' childhood very well. This sounds strange to us today but they were not interested in history as much as they were what Jesus did as Son of God and Savior.

5. What the heck is the Q-document? The letter "Q" is used from the German word quelle which means source. It is believed to have been a collection of sayings of Christ, sort of like a book of his best quotes. It is important to realize that we do not possess this document so its contents are highly speculative if it existed at all. Sometimes you will notice that parallel passages in the Gospel accounts have word for word identical quotes of Jesus. Scholars say they have to be either quoting each other or quoting some source document.

6. What are the synoptic Gospels and what makes the Gospel of John so unique? The synoptics are Matthew, Mark and Luke because they track Jesus' ministry in a similar manner. John does not really follow the same pattern and it emphasizes more the divinity of Christ. Scholars call this writing with a higher Christology.

7. If the Gospels were not written until about 30 years after Christ then how can they be trusted? How does this compare with other ancient pieces of literature? If an elderly person wrote memoirs of their life they would be writing about events over 30 years old and we would not question their accuracy. The Jews memorized many things and focused on an oral tradition so when it was written down it was considered to be highly accurate. Most ancient pieces of literature were not written down until centuries later so actually the New Testament is the most authentic work we have.

8. Are there any New Testament books that are older than the Gospels? All of Paul's writings which make up two thirds of the New Testament were written down before the Gospels were.

9. Dan Brown claims in the DaVinci Code that Christians did not worship Christ as God until after 325 AD. How would you respond to that after reading chapter one? The creeds of the Bible such as the one found in 1 Corinthians 15 can be placed to within 5 years of Jesus' crucifixion (about 35-38 AD). Paul's writings are dated in the 50s and there are numerous writings from the second century that refer to Christ as God. Actually, Tertullian developed the doctrine of the Trinity in the late second century.

I hope you are enjoying the material. I'll post some stuff for chapter 2 tomorrow.

Getting Started: Chapter 1

Well, we had our first session yesterday morning for the Case for Christ class at Thompson Station. There were about 15 people present. I recorded the session and have an mp3 of the discussion. If you haven't received it by e-mail and would like a copy of the mp3 and outline please let me know at roger.lightner@yahoo.com.

Here are some discussion questions for you to consider for chapter one. I'll post some explanation to these questions in a couple of days.

1. If you were on a jury, how important would eyewitness testimony be in helping you make your decision?

2. What eyewitnesses do we have for Jesus' life?

3. How do the author's names on the four Gospel accounts compare with that of apocryphal writings?

4. How do the four Gospel accounts differ from modern biographies?

5. What the heck is the Q-document?

6. What are the synoptic Gospels and what makes the Gospel of John so unique?

7. If the Gospels were not written until about 30 years after Christ then how can they be trusted? How does this compare with other ancient pieces of literature?

8. Are there any New Testament books that are older than the Gospels?

9. Dan Brown claims in the DaVinci Code that Christians did not worship Christ as God until after 325 AD. How would you respond to that after reading chapter one?

Feel free to comment here or post something at my Facebook page (Bible Study Station). Let me know if there is something in the book you do not understand and I will post an explanation. See you in a couple of days.

Case for Christ

Well, one week from tomorrow on Sunday July 12 I will be starting to teach a six week series during an 8:00am Sunday School class at my new church Thompson Station Church. I am very excited to teach this class again in a new location.

I would like to set this up so you can follow along long distance if you would like. If you send me an e-mail at roger.lightner@yahoo.com I will place you in a distribution list to receive an outline for each lesson. I will also be recording the lessons and making mp3 audio files of the discussion. I can then e-mail you a link to download the mp3 file. On the outline you will have homework/daily devotional readings with questions to respond to and then they will be discussed the following week in class. You can get as involved as you want. You could just listen to the discussion to get a general overview or you could listen, read the book, do the devotions and participate in discussions here on the blog to really delve into the study. It's up to you how much time you want to spend. One last thing is that I have created a Facebook page to use as a discussion tool where you can post comments or ask questions during the week. Do a friend search for "Bible Study Station" on Facebook and send me a friend request to see what people are saying about the book. I look forward to having you join in. God Bless and look for the first lesson next week July 12.

Day 31 Devotion – Birth of Ishmael

Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, Genesis 15:13-16

Picture: The Islamic prophet Muhammad.

This is one of the first prophesies in the Bible. God promises Abraham many descendants even though at this point Abraham is married to a barren wife. The land that is not theirs that they will serve in is Egypt. He is told they will spend approximately 400 years in Egypt. Then he is told they will come out with great possessions. This happens following the plague of the firstborn. Lastly, we see that it will be the fourth generation that they come out. The genealogy of Exodus chapter six will show us these four generations.


And the Angel of the LORD said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Genesis 16:11-12


Abraham and Sarai got a little impatient waiting on a child of their own. It was customary among Mesopotamian peoples for a barren woman to have another woman serve as a surrogate. Sarai gets her maidservant to bear a child for Abraham and he is named Ishmael. This is important because the Arab peoples and therefore Islamic peoples of the Middle East trace their lineage back to Abraham through Ishmael. Hagar is told by an angel that Ishmael will give rise to a great nation that will fight with the world and the world against him. This is a perfect description of the Islamic movement. Muhammad started a campaign of taking the world by the sword and forcing the infidels to convert or be killed.

Day 30 Devotion – Lot’s Rescue

Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus. So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people. Genesis 14:14-16

Picture: This map shows that Damascus is far northeast of the Sea of Galilee so Abraham pursued these forces quite a ways. Probably around 300 miles round trip.

Have you ever pictured Abraham as just an old man living in a tent with his wife Sarai by themselves? This is not the way the ancient people lived. Wealthy people had servants and the poor were the servants. A person’s wealth was determined by how many livestock and possessions and servants a man had. We see that Abraham traveled with a large group. Lot is captured by these invading kings and Abraham is able to muster up an army of 318 fighting men. If you add on men not able to fight and women and children, Abraham possibly had close to 1000 servants. This made him a very powerful man. Back in these days, an army of just a few hundred people was large because most people lived in city states. Abraham with a couple of allies is able to defeat these four kings and get people and possessions back including Lot. Damascus is far north of Israel so Abraham pursued them a few hundred miles round trip. Most people glance over this story as insignificant but it really tells us that Abraham was powerful and we can see later why the Canaanites feared him and tried to be allies with him because they viewed him as a serious threat.


Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High… And he gave him a tithe of all. Genesis 14:18,20b

Melchizedek was king of Salem, this is Jerusalem (Jeru-Salem). He is mysterious but was a true priest of God even though Jerusalem was not yet a Jewish city. Abraham gives him a ten percent tithe and many scholars think this was Christ.